What It's Like To...

"What It's Like To..." lets you vicariously experience intriguing things you may never get the chance to do. You can learn what it's like to summit Mt. Everest, attend the Academy Awards, and be a professional baseball player. Each week on our podcast, an insightful, accomplished guest shares personal stories and witty anecdotes with host Elizabeth Pearson Garr.

All Episodes

What It's Like To...

What It's Like to Be in the Secret Service

May 24, 2023 • Season 5 • Episode 9

Send us a text

For 24 years, Daniel Dluzneski's job required him to be in the White House and attend events with the President--often with a large, very well-trained dog: Daniel was a lieutenant in the U.S. Secret Service. In this episode he shares behind-the-scenes stories from that position--what it was like to be in the White House on September 11, 2001; his "favorite" President to serve; and what happened when he was giving a tour of rarely-visited areas of the White House and they had an unexpected encounter with President Clinton. After leaving the Secret Service, Daniel began using his skillset to help school systems better prepare for emergency situations, like active shooters or bomb threats. He gives us tips and thoughts on how teachers and students can stay safe: being prepared is better than being scared.

In this episode:

How the Secret Service came to be (02:09)
Describing working in the White House and the West Wing (05:37)
Daniel's favorite President to work with (07:56)
Working in the White House on 9/11 (12:41)
What the private residence in the White House is like (19:11)
Next career: school safety (21:00)
Explanation of a lockdown drill (23:56)
"Implicit memory" and how his training in the Secret Service informed his new work (27:30)
The importance of saving yourself so you can save others (28:37)
Why Daniel thinks cell phones should be banned from schools (34:44)
"Security theater" (37:46)
Don't live in fear; use "situational awareness" (40:17)

Want to know more about Daniel?

Find him on Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danieldluzneski/
Check out his book, “The First Five Minutes: School Shooting survival guide for Administrators and Teachers": https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BLFW5FBK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Want to know more about "What It's Like To..."?

Sign up to be on our Insiders' List to receive our newsletters and insiders' information! Go to whatitsliketo.net (sign-ups are at the bottom of the page)
Follow us on social media:

Support the show

I got to see all kinds of sports stars and movie stars and

TV personalities and. people from foreign countries and diplomats. And what was I thought, very special was, just giving tours of the West Wing to these high profile individuals.

That was, such a benefit because the White House was one thing, but the West Wing was special.

To me, one of the most intriguing things about the Secret [00:01:00] Service is right there in the name It's secret. Well, today we're going to demystify some of that. My guest on this episode, Daniel De Luki Dsky, spent 24 years as a lieutenant in the United States Secret Service.

He worked in the canine bomb detection unit with his dog Corak, protecting the president, the vice president, and their families. After Daniel retired, he applied his experience and his skills to a new area, educating people and organizations about what to do in emergency situations such as an active shooter, fire or bomb threat.

Daniel, I know you have a lot to share with me, so welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Elizabeth. Appreciate it.

It's important topics that you deal with here.

I'm interested, in your background and how you got into this. So with your work as a secret service agent, can you really tell me about that? most of us, I think picture what we know from movies and tv, which is [00:02:00] the guy in the suit with the earpiece following along next to the president.

But you were in the canine unit, so you, did you go ahead of the president and search out? Tell me what you did.

Well, first to start off, I wasn't an agent. I was part of what was called the Uniform Division. just a a little bit of history. the Secret Services created back in 1865, not for protecting the president, but actually to stop the counterfeiting after the Civil War. So they really didn't start protecting the president until after President McKinley was shot in 1902, and that's when Congress, designated them to protect the President through the Department of Treasury.

My division, which was called the Uniform Division, didn't come into existence until 1922. We were part of the White House Police, and then it wasn't until 1930 that they decided to incorporate us into the Secret Service. And as time went on, that part of that division grew, and it became the Executive Protection Service.

And then it finally became the Uniform Division of the Secret Service. In the seventies. So when I [00:03:00] joined, back in the eighties. right at the end of Reagan's term. we had three divisions. We had the White House division, we had a foreign missions division, and the Vice President's division.

And fortunately I got to start at the foreign missions branch. And unlike the agents as the Uniform Division, we had dual powers. I had federal police powers, but I also had metropolitan Washington DC police powers, meaning I could arrest you for threatening the president, but I also could arrest you for assault, burglary, robbery, drugs, weapons, anything like that.

So it was a regular law enforcement police agency within the Secret Service. not only did we protect. The White House grounds the Vice President's residents, but we protected over 800 foreign embassies and chanceries in the metropolitan area of Washington DC.

We had vehicles, we had motorcycles, we went on calls. I've done drug arrests, weapons arrests, I worked undercover. I went through crime scene search training, was certified as a crime scene. Search technician, like the [00:04:00] CSI people you see on tv.

I stayed with the uniform division because there was the ability. To go to be an agent and talk in my sleeve and wear the nice suits and stuff. But I didn't want that for two reasons. One was I didn't want to,be forced to move to a certain part of the country. I wanted to stay right in Washington DC So I stayed with the Uniform Division because they had these specialized units.

They had canine, they had the counter sniper, the guys on the rooftop, They had the emergency response team, the motorcade unit, like I said, the crime scene search technician. So they had more specialized units.

And by my three years, which was the minimum, in order to apply for the canine position, I was fortunate enough to get into canine. And I worked with my dog, Corak. He was a Belgian Mowa. Now, back then,

back in the eighties, it was the longest training of any training throughout the Secret Service with the dogs. it was 26 weeks of training because at because at the time we were both bomb trained and handler protection [00:05:00] training. So here were these dogs with this dual role of not only, finding bombs ahead of the president, wherever we went, but they also were there to protect us, if they needed to,

He was your partner and he was my partner and he lived till he was 13 years old. And after that I went to the White House We were the only armed police force that gives tours at the White House, cuz I loved history.

I worked in the West Wing and, worked in public affairs. I was a spokesperson for the Secret Service and I eventually ended up as a lieutenant after my 24 years and then eventually retired. Was it kind of a heady experience to be with the president and vice president and being in these. Situations with maybe other world leaders or in certain

yeah. It's like, I, people would ask me about what was it like? there were days where it was very boring, and there were other days where the level was just, you had these intelligence come in and after a while we would think, well,

how high of a level could we get to? I mean, there's not a level [00:06:00] plus, plus plus. So yeah, you would have these intelligence reports come in, oh, we've got this terrorist group and that terrorist group and we've got these threats and that threat.

Well, look, we're already at a high intense level, we can't get anymore higher. So yes, there were days like that, but there were other days, where The president still had to conduct business. So yeah, there would be events, there'd be bill signings, you'd have senators and diplomats coming in.

You still had, social events that would go on. So I got to see all kinds of sports stars and movie stars and TV personalities and. people from foreign countries and diplomats. And what was I thought, very special was, just giving tours of the West Wing to these high profile individuals.

That was, such a benefit because the White House was one thing, but the West Wing was special. West Wing was not open to the public. That was something that was, a little, little higher at level than to get over to the West Wing to have you see the Oval Office, the Roosevelt room, the cabinet room, you know, situation [00:07:00] room, where all these things happened.

So that was, kind of the neat thing. And there's funny stuff too that was happening. I remember I was given a, a tour of, the Oval Office and there were a couple ladies there and I was telling 'em about the Oval Office and all the history behind it, and President Clinton was at home at that time.

This was on the weekend. And we just hear over our little earpiece, Hey, the president's on his way over to the Oval Office, and it's literally like 20 feet away. So we're like, ladies, ladies, you have to get outta here. You have to go. Cause, because he's the Oval Office. And he got there so fast that he looked up and saw these two women and he goes, no, no, no, no.

They can stay. And they were allowed into the Oval Office. They got to take pictures with him.

with the president.

The time of their lives. So it's all about luck and opportunity. And I told these ladies when I left, I said, you guys got a story for the rest of your lives to be able to do that, to have him, invite you in.

So there were times like that. I remember telling friends of mine, who was your favorite president to work [00:08:00] with, would be, George Bush senior. He was like your dad. And Barbara Bush was like your mom. He would invite, officers to play horseshoes.

He said, Hey, we need a fourth. You gotta come over here and play Horseshoe man, sir, we're on duty. What? You know, what

Yeah,

it won't reflect very well on

he was just an amazing guy. I remember when I was in canine,

we went down to Houston, the Astrodome, for the Republican National Convention.

And if you know, the Astrodome, you know, it's a big round, building. And the atrium or, The lobby area is just this huge sidewalk with the glass doors that's round, it goes in a circle. So I had finished my sweep and everything the president was getting done with his speech

And you hear on the radio president's getting ready to leave. Okay? So I'm there with my canine and canine always works with military, e o G, sorry, the what division?

the what? Division.

ordinance, division, e o D.

Their military personnel. And we work in conjunction with them [00:09:00] cuz there are areas that the dog can't get to, whether it's high or low or down somewhere

I see.

get to. anyway, we're kind of standing there and at the time

the high level agents would ask you if the president's coming. can, you just kind of disappear, just go over there on the side, kind of hide kind of thing. We all knew that. So here comes the president down. He's at least, oh my god, Elizabeth. He's at least a thousand feet away.

Little tiny object. He's way down there at the end of this hallway, and we're kind of standing off to the side, we're not

Scattering.

Yeah. It's just us. It's just me and these two u d guys, the president and the agents, and he turns towards us, starts walking towards us, and he is waving.

So of course we're like, who? Who the he waving at. So we're waiting and waiting and we're kind get to, oh my God, he's coming this way. We gotta disappear. So we're trying to hide behind this pillar. There's nowhere to go. walking toward us and waving and waving. We're still like,

[00:10:00] Oh

He was waving at us, he walked that entire distance to shake all of our hands and say, you guys doing a great job. And he turns around leave, and we're just standing there where our mouths will be going. What was that? And I, I tell you, you talk about raising the level of someone you appreciate,

yeah. You were told to sort of disappear when he comes by and instead he goes out of his way to make you feel important cuz you guys are doing such an important job for his safety. so just to clarify for my mind, your job when you were working in the canine unit was to get there early to do the bomb assessment and to make sure everything is

okay.

So you were

always on the advanced team.

Yes, we would get there at least six to eight hours, prior, no matter what the event was, it was a big event. Obviously it was more than one dog. You'd have multiple dogs. And you would search, certain sections along with your e o D partners, and you would do that ahead of time.

And then once that was [00:11:00] done, then you had individuals, usually agents that came by and what they would call just to secure that area, meaning no one was allowed in there until time of the event when they went

I see.

metal detectors. So yeah, we went ahead of the president. We got to stay in some of the nicest hotels.

And it was really kind of neat because here you got, people paying thousands of dollars for these hotel rooms and here's this guy all dressed in black with this black dog, just looking really aggressive looking. No, no, no. He's fine. He's fine. He's, he's a bomb dog. He'll be okay.

Yeah. He's,

he's doing the important work.

So,

fun. I saw a lot of eventsat the White House.

I was there, when Francisco Duran took an AK 47, sprayed the front of the White House cuz thought he saw President Clinton.

it was just a person with the Whiteish hair. He thought it was President Clinton. And, I was also there during a really strange occurrence. We had an individual who stole a one engine Cessna plane in Maryland, and he was [00:12:00] going to fly it into the White House. Well, he took a couple of turns around the Washington Monument.

He was below the radar. He cut his engine, so he glided in. And this was at night, so I'll never forget, the officer in the south ground sees just this black object just gliding in towards him on the south grounds. And fortunately, or unfortunately for him, it crashed into the magnolia tree, the Jackson Magnolia, the oldest tree on the ground it

Oh my gosh.

he, he died instantly, the individual. you just heard this loud crash, like, what was that? so that was a very strange occurrence.

And I know what you're leading up to, Elizabeth, you're leading up to, nine 11.

Well, you know, that was right in the middle of your years. I know that.

nine 11, I was a sergeant. I was working, the special operations during tours. that was the day of the congressional picnics. We had all these picnic tables set up on the south grounds and they had all the food ready and everything was ready to go.

And we gave our normal tours. And during that time, we would get in, [00:13:00] oh, probably during the day. You, you talk from 10, 15,000 people getting through the White House during the day, which is a lot. This was, you

Wait, that's just a typical tour

day,

day, typical tour day that

Oh, wow.

coming into the White House. so like you and everyone else, we watched that first plane fly in and, and you're kind of like, okay. the pilot passed out, something weird happened, it was just an anomaly. And

right. An accident.

plane Yeah, an accident.

It wasn't until that second plane hit were like, uh oh. and then the red flags went up and we had to clear the entire White House grounds of everyone, staff and everything. And I learned at that time, because why would you know any other time, the ushers in the White House, and just for an explanation, the the head usher of the White House, is in charge of all the personnel within that residence.

That means you're maintenance people, you're cleaning people, everything from your cooks, butlers, everything within the White House they're in charge of, and they have a designation that if there is an event, there is one usher that needs to stay the [00:14:00] entire time they're in a residence. Whether that resident's on fire or under bombing, under attack.

They're designated for that day. And I didn't know that at the time. So that was kind of interesting. So I basically went around with the usher to try to clear out anyone that was there. And I'll never forget something I kind of poignant, it's just something that stuck with me with all these years.

I had an officer that was sitting in the chair outside the president's elevator, that's his post. He's there all the time that's covered 24 hours a day. And I was walking to the residence and he stands up and he looks at me and he just asks, how's things going? And I said, well, I'm in the process of clearing out the White House.

And as I walk towards the exit door, he starts following me. Like, everybody's exiting out, we're evacuating, right? I turned back and I, said, no, you have to stay on your post, because we had no idea what was going on. Absolutely no idea. We thought we were under attack.

Yeah, this was unprecedented.

he gave me this look.

I'll never forget the look he gave me, which was basically I'm expendable. And I [00:15:00] didn't say it, but it was just this unspoken thing that, yeah, he was expendable and he went back and sat down at his post and I can imagine the fear. So once I got everyone out of the, white House, we then expanded our zones out, from the, the grounds outside of the White House

So you were in charge of this,

No, no, I, I

out the White

I had a certain responsibility of a zone or a section that I was in charge of. And then once we got outside of the White House, I had maybe 15 or 20 officers that were under me that stayed with me, and we went outside the White House and we shut down.

You know, it was just absolute chaos. I mean, everything, the cell phones, nothing worked. traffic came to a standstill. And the interesting thing, or the scary thing, I guess, is we all looked up in the sky because we thought it's coming. I mean, we thought tanks were coming down the street.

We, we didn't know what, we didn't know anything. And there were so many rumors coming over the radio. You're hearing things of firetruck that were, stolen. You're hearing things of, oh, we've got [00:16:00] 20 white vans coming down. The hi, all these different things were happening at once. And we're like, what in the heck is going on?

We had no idea.

And you thought you were probably the target of

everything right there at the White House? yeah.

And so it was very reassuring and there was just a sigh of relief when we looked up and we saw the F sixteens going over our heads and you, saw the American star, Oh, thank God we've got control of the skies now we're just worried about, tanks coming down the street.

None of that happened, obviously, but it was just an event that, no one will ever forget. Everyone kind of remembers,

Yeah.

where they were on, on nine 11, I remember, we couldn't use the cell phones, obviously, and there was a, Thor there that let us use the landline, and I was able to get ahold of my wife.

She was up in Maryland, but yeah, it was an event that no one would ever want to go through. And I remember turning, south, towards the Pentagon and seeing that plume of smoke going up when the plane hit the Pentagon and I had, counter snipers on the rooftop that were watching the whole thing.

They saw the plane, [00:17:00] that plane was going for the White House because he circled twice and if you ever look at a map of the White House, it's in between the treasury and the old executive office building on the other side of the Washington Monument. It's very tiny. It's a really small target, but the plane was too big.

He tried to make the turn and the officers on the rooftops heard 'em powering up to try to make the turn. He couldn't, so he took a secondary unit. He just went for the Pentagon and crashed over there. But yeah, it was a day.

So that day must have highlighted something. that was present throughout your whole career you have to have a lot of bravery to be in that job. You could live on the edge of fear all the time. You're there to prevent bad things from happening. And so how did you psychologically prepare for every day in

Well at that point, really your training kicks in It's all about the, the training and, what we needed to do. Yeah. We took directions from higher ups, obviously, but they also were, hearing the same information we were hearing. [00:18:00] So your training just kicks in. Okay. We need to close the streets down.

Okay. All right. We need to bring canine in to check these cars over here. And of course, during that time, we were set up the bicycle racks. They call 'em those little barricades.

Oh yeah.

we had, I laugh about it now, we had so many people running up to us at those barricades and saying, I need to get to my car, or I need to get here.

And I said, do you realize what's going on? you're not going anywhere. Walk. the city was completely shut down. So it just was an odd situation when you had people that just were oblivious to what was happening.

But back to your, question. Yeah, the training kicked in

on that day, IThe only fear I had was control of disguise. That was our biggest fear. other than that, once we had control of disguise, it's like, okay, we're on the ground. If there's an attack coming, we'll get prepared for it.

we'll be okay. I guess it's innate. you just think about your training and you just, you know, buckle up.

One more question about the [00:19:00] White House, because I've always been curious, you mentioned the president's elevator and that you were in the residence. I've always wondered what the, private residence was like.

That's interesting that you say that because obviously, tourists aren't allowed up into the private residence. The White House consists of at least six floors, maybe seven if you considered the shelter underneath. when we gave a tour, as people come in, you're only gonna see the two floors, basically the ground floor.

And then once you get upstairs what's called the state floor, where all the events are above that is two more floors of the residence. Well, we were fortunate enough because the Usher said, you know what? He said, look, if there's ever an emergency, you guys need to know what's up there. So it was the funniest thing because when we got up there, we were just like tourists.

We're looking around, our miles are open, looking at all the artwork and stuff like, ah, oh my God, what's this? And we

the, history that's

oh, the history, the Lincoln bedroom. He had a copy of the Gettysburg address there in one room in this glass case. Got to see their bedroom. It's got these hidden doors. [00:20:00] Got to see this other bedroom.

I mean, it was neat to see, and each room had its own fireplace. it was just really neat to be able to see something like that.

so it's just kind of like a big grand house?

I would say Victorian. some people say it's more the federal, architecture, but, yeah, it's just this grand house that, you know, kind of creeks

Yeah.

the wood floors and

Yeah. It's not modern.

no, no, but it's, got all the modern amenities. Yeah. It's, it,

really neat.

Wow, what an experience. well I know that you spent 24 years in a variety of capacities there, and then, after you retired, you moved to Florida and did you think you were just gonna sit on a beach and retire? I know that eventually you've worked your way into quite another career, me how you.

quoting me there. That's what I wanted to do. I was like, I move the floor and I sit on a beach. That's it. That's all I wanna do. but being, the kind of personality, as an alpha personality, my wife at the time, my ex-wife now, she said, look, gotta do something.

You can't be sitting [00:21:00] around, And it just so happened that this job opened up in one of our county schools and it, it tipped my resume perfectly.

it was with the Pinellas County School, system.

it was a new position, of emergency management coordinator. but I, kind of didn't know what I was getting into because I remember asking what the day-to-day duties were, and, and they were like, well, you'll find out, Well, I found out that I was alone. I had no staff.

It was just me. And I was in charge of over 100,000 students.

Wow.

schools in the district. They said, here's what you need to do. They need to have a safety plan. They need to have a security assessment.

I said, okay. So I made sure I sent an email to every principal that every one of these 140 schools and I said, I wanna visit with you, in person. I wanna see your school. It took me over a year, but I got to visit every single one of those schools.

The one thing that I did notice that somebody schools out, they were still using codes

Can you describe what that

for people who don't [00:22:00] know?

you see in hospitals, they'll have a code white, a code blue, a code red, a code

Code red. Yeah.

And what happens is in a school situation, they'll say a code, I don't care what color is they use, but when someone hears a code over the thing, they're like, well, that doesn't sound good.

Well, what if you've got visitors there? If you've got maintenance personnel there, what if you got a substitute there? They're like, well, what does that code mean? I mean, was

Yeah. I know it's negative, but

don't know what to do.Yeah.

we have to get away from codes. Just use plain language.

Say we're in a lockdown.

Mm-hmm.

whatever it is, that's all, just use plain language. And boy, they bucked against that for a long time. they were so involved with these codes. But I found out from a doctor friend who worked in an emergency room and she said, oh, we've got these little reference cards.

She said, I don't even know some of these codes. They'll give out a code purple or a code orange. I forgot what it's, so I'll see on the reference card. Okay. Orange means this. So that's what I did. I created [00:23:00] some of these reference cards and I put down on there what the emergency, situation was.

And I went to this one elementary school and I said, well, how do you put out that there's a lockdown? She says, oh, the words we use are the pony is being delivered today. And I looked at her, I said, what? She says, well, we don't wanna upset any of the kids. So that's what we put out.

And I just, I laughed. I said, well, no, that makes no sense. I said, just use plain language. because most people be like, they delivered a pony here today. What is that? I said, no, don't use that. Don't

and then it's so confusing. If they're ever somewhere and a real pony is

delivered, it's like the poor kid is so confused.

are not naive. And, They know what's going on. You're not gonna fool them. I remember we did a lockdown drill, And this principal liked to trick, the, staff there, and he went out into the yard during the drill.

Now, first of I'll explain what a lockdown drill is. you turn off [00:24:00] the lights, you close your curtains, you lock your door. You sit quietly every around the floor, in the corner, away from the windows, away from the door, silence your cell phone.

You do not listen to any announcements. You don't open that door, and you just be quiet. Wait for the good guys to come and have with a key and unlock the door. So what the principal did that one time, he says, I'm gonna try to trick these people. He went out into the courtyard and he had the bullhorn and he says, well, it's all over everybody.

Come on out. The drill is over. His teachers did not do anything. They knew it was a trick. Two substitutes said, oh, okay, I'm gonna unlock my door and get back to teaching. These kids went, no, no, no. It's a trick. It's a trick. They knew. They knew you don't listen any announcements, you don't open the door until they come with the key.

So a lot of these kids

are smart.

they're very smart,

So this idea that these kids feel danger or anxious or [00:25:00] frightened by these drills, I don't think that's true. The majority, yes, there are children with anxiety issues. Yes, there are children that for whatever reason, get fearful of something like that.

the idea that these students get anxious due to the drills themselves, then you're not drilling properly. you should not be drilling with live ammunition or even loud noises. police running everywhere, shouting, yelling, banging.

There's no reason for that. There really isn't You wanna make it as real as possible, but not real. So it goes above and beyond. What these students are gonna run into.

the reality is that. We all hate that we're here. we hate that there is such a thing as a school shooting or a bomb threat we get sick to our stomach every time. We're seeing it way too often that anyone should feel threatened in a public space like that, or at a grocery store or, you know, it's awful.

But[00:26:00] that's a conversation of how to stop that from happening. But now that we're here, that it is happening, how to keep the people safe in these places in a workspace, in a school that's what you're dealing with. because it is happening. Just ignoring the fact that it's happening is not going to help.

We need to know how to keep ourselves safe or our kids safe, in that situation. So pretending that it's maybe not going to happen is not gonna help anyone.

No. And that's one of the reasons why I wrote my book. the first five Minutes, the school shooting Survival, for school teachers and administrators. Teachers nowadays, Elizabeth, toughest job, toughest

Oh yeah.

it's amazing what they, everyone has gone through with the pandemic, but especially teachers, because now they're already under pressure to keep their schools at a certain grade level.

Well, now we know by testing that because of the pandemic, they've fallen way behind again. And so they're under pressure again. And now what they've gotta have in the back of their mind, [00:27:00] There's all these shootings going on also. So, my gosh, now I'm in a dangerous situation, fortunately, and I say fortunately because it is like being struck by lightning.

as the media keeps exposing, exposing this, the really, very, very rare that these school shootings happen. And it's something that all I ask for is that you're prepared and give you the confidence. Be prepared as a teacher. because I've had teachers that will come to me usually after an event, obviously, and say, look, I'm scared.

I'm scared to come to school.

what I learned from the Secret Service is even though everyone hated training because it just felt like, oh my gosh, we gotta do this over again, over and again. But it gave you implicit memory. We had to shoot, we were the only agency that would have to qualify to shoot every month.

And that was one thing that became implicit memory. your muscle memory, it just was something every month you do the same thing and they wanted that in your head. Cuz in an emergent situation, you're gonna do the same thing. So that's what I wanted to do with these teachers.

[00:28:00] and drill as often as possible. As you know, you have to do a fire drill every month. Like, okay, when was the last time there was a fire that killed anyone in a school hundreds of years ago? And yet active shooter drills, I call 'em active assailant drills, are maybe once every six months, every quarter maybe, maybe only once a year.

have these drills more often, because then it will be implicit memory.

Okay? Locked on. Know what to do. Lock the door, shut the lights, the blinds. Sit quietly. just go through your head what you need to do and wait.

principles,

said it was so hard for them to sit in their office and wait and do nothing because you wanna help. You wanna get out there and do something. And I would try to explain to them, no, you're not helping anyone. you have to save yourself first. That's the first thing I, say in my book is save yourself first, then you can help others. And you have to wait. as [00:29:00] hard as it is, you're gonna hear horrible things.

You're gonna hear loud noises. You have to make yourself safe. Look what happened at, Sandy Hook. The principal came out in the hallway. Look what happened in Nashville. Principal came out in the hallway. You're not doing yourself. anybody, any good,

So it's like the airplane, rule first put on your own mask and then put on your child's

Absolutely keep yourself safe first, then you can help others. And I tell the teachers the same thing, keep yourself safe first, then you can help your students. And that was very hard for principals to do that.

there's something called Alice, there's another thing called alive. There's another thing called run, hide, fight on these different things that are out there. And I really want any of your admin people, any of your school board people to research what you're doing.

Because there's plenty of data out there. There's a company called Safe Havens International. They have done all kinds of research on this subject of training, of drilling, of what works, what doesn't work. And so far [00:30:00] everybody agrees.

Even in department of Education, the National Psychologist Organization, the special, resource officer organization, lockdowns are the number one you lock down. You don't do anything else. Lockdown. Wait for the good guys. So far, a shooter has not tried to breach a locked door.

The reason for that is it takes too long. They want easy victims. They want the ones in the hallway, the ones at the library, cafeteria. They want numbers they know the cops are coming. So they're either gonna kill themselves or, you know, shot by a cop, whatever. so they're not gonna try to breach a locked door.

That is so interesting. I don't think I had thought through that. they're not gonna try to shoot through or kick down a locked

No takes too long. Now obviously, there's crazy people out there. If their intent is to get to that individual in that room, that's another situation. But so far, no, they're not gonna breach the locked door. Now, I tell teachers, look, they may try to open that door. If you feel that they're [00:31:00] paying too much attention to your door itself, block it.

Put a file cabinet, throw it down in front of it, push your desk up against it. Just block the door so they can't get in no matter what.

The good guys are coming. And the reason I, titled my book, the first five minutes is FBI Statistics Show Be Most Shootings happened between three to five minutes. Sounds like a short time when you're involved in it sounds like forever, but it really is only about three to five minutes. It's very, very short time.

It's actually less than that, where the most of your damage is done the first 30 seconds to a minute.

when you go through something like this, something very traumatic, you've got the chance of just forgetting everything. You forget what day it is, you forget your name.

Sure.

Yeah.

goes outta your head.

Unless again, you've been drilling and training, the door, somebody locked. Kids, you sit down, quiet, turn the lights off, and we're gonna wait for the good guys to come and the good guys are coming.

You're not gonna get the without response. You're gonna get the Nashville response. They're gonna go in and stop that shooter [00:32:00] and everybody is gonna be safe. So, yeah, stay away from this run, hide, fight, deal. stay in a lockdown.

We had a, kind of scary incident here in our town a couple of weeks ago. My daughter's high school, she actually wasn't there. Her class was offsite, but apparently all the kids were in their first period of the day. And a note was discovered on one of the buildings, printed out from a computer, not handwritten, saying I'm going to shoot up this school or this building.

And so immediately everyone supposedly went into lockdown, but apparently all the teachers handled it differently. Some went into like full lockdown, like kids had to hide in closets and things, and some just locked their doors and kept teaching. and it turns out what it was, and this is no heartbreaking too, is that it was a student at the school.

There was supposed to be a big test that day, like a. An AP test and the kid was so stressed out about taking the test that [00:33:00] he or she thought this was the way out is to put a threat at the school so things would get canceled, which is a whole other discussion, but freaked out, an entire student body where kids aren't afraid to go to back to school, like is there a shooter?

And clearly there's no shooter. This was just a desperate, desperate plea for help.

has happened a lot more recently. two things. One is what you have talked about is called swatting, and this swatting is they will call 9 1 1. And it was done, before the schools with the individuals. They had, an issue with someone, a next door neighbor, somebody down the street that would swat 'em, would call up and, and the police respond to that place.

Now what they're doing is calling in and it would be bouncing around from like Russia or Germany or China or whatever. Cuz they can't, trace the call. there's just too many. Technology is horrible in that respect. A call 9 1 1. there's an active shooter in front of, Smith Jones, high school, [00:34:00] you know, and hang up.

Well, what's gonna happen, the police will respond. However, what should happen is the police should have a great relationship with that school. Your first call should go to that school. Don't immediately jump in the car and go L for leather with lights and sirens and bust into the school and scare the heck out of everybody.

First call to the school. What's going on? we've got this call that they said an active shooter. Like, no, nothing's going on here. these individuals wanna see this response. It's a police response, just as chaos. The other thing that's happening is this airdrop,

And within the school, you'll have an individual airdrop to another individual, a threat.

And then again, all hell will break loose after that. And that's why, The idea of cell phones in schools disagree completely. They're as absolutely no reason for kids to have cell phones in schools.

I asked my son, he's a junior in high school. I said, do they allow you to have your phones out during class time? He goes, [00:35:00] no, not really, but kids will sneak it, under their desk, under their

same thing. Yeah.

on Android, texting, whatever. This has gotta stop. Especially if you're a teacher,

a distraction. Oh yeah.

There's no reason there's such helicopter parents, now I'm a parent myself. If I need to get ahold of my kid, I'll call the front desk, Hey, get 'em up to the front desk.

I need to talk to him

that's that's how they did it. In our day, we'd get a call slip and we'd go to the office.

It, it worked.

there's no reason to have these cell phones. I had a bomb threat come in at a high school of 1500 kids. Next door to that high school was a middle school with another 800 children.

Well,

Oh boy.

threat at the high school means you evacuate, which again, I disagree with, but they evacuate. Well, that means a middle school next door, they're gonna evacuate also. Well, now you've got these kids with their cell phones texting their friends and their parents saying, Hey, we're under a bomb threat.

I saw a package with wires. I saw this package on the second floor. I saw a backpack. All false. All

now the whole, [00:36:00] the whole community

Here come the parents. So they're flooding the streets. To get to the school, I had to have the ladder truck block the road into the school just to stop them from coming in.

And you're talking a high school minimum of two hours to search that school, before they allow the kids back in. And of course, bomb threats to be called in because it's test day. So that's what they would do. But what's adding to it is the cell phone texting of false rumors that were going on.

I had another incident at a high school where we had an individual claim that he saw a student with a gun in the bathroom. Okay, we're going to a lockdown. So now here come the police and we've gotta search the school for this individual with a gun that was in the bathroom. Turned out to be false.

However, during that time, here come the airdrops. Here come the rumors. Hey, I saw a gun in Jimmy's class. I saw a gun in Mr. Smith's class. So this went on for hours, because now you have to take these threats seriously. So they go from the classroom to classroom. Now they're [00:37:00] searching all these kids in each class you talk about disruption.

And another thing, here come the parents. Never found a gun, nothing was going on. The principal said that the parents, look, there is no gun I still want to take my son home or my child home. So it's just

It,

escalates, everything.

absolutely escalates everything.

Look, cell phones are a good thing. Yes, I understand. The media will pick up on it that, Susie said, I love you to her mom. There's an active shooter. And the that was her last message to her mom, okay, they're gonna pick up on that, but they don't pick up on all the false rumors that are going on that, that waste police time and waste an administration's time just because it's test day or whatever.

So yeah, that, that's a pet peeve of mine. no cell phones.

Speaking of technology, I know you've also advised that it's really not necessary for school districts or institutions to invest in expensive technology. Just stick to the basic drills and training, [00:38:00] and we don't need all the bells and whistles.

Absolutely Elizabeth, it's called Security Theater. What happens is you'll have an incident that's next door or an incident will happen maybe in the state over, and the parents want answers, Hey, What are you doing to keep my kids safe? And the administration right away said, Hey, we're gonna get metal detectors.

And that's it. Hey parents, you're satisfied. Now we got metal detectors just like at the airport. Well, they get these metal detectors and they'll put 'em in place and yes, it may stop some weapons.

It didn't stop knives. Sometimes it misses guns, so it's not a hundred percent. And the other thing is, Elizabeth, look, if I'm hell bent on getting into that school and shooting it up, what's a metal detector gonna do? I'm gonna go through and just shoot everybody anyways. And if I'm somebody that wants to get a gun into that school, I'm getting the gun into school.

I'll wait till after school. I'll wait till during the school cause my buddy's gonna open up the side door for a pizza delivery. I'm gonna go to that side door that I know a teacher's gonna open that door for a a cigarette, and I can put the gun in then or after [00:39:00] school event, a basketball, football, a weekend event, I'll get that gun in there somehow.

metal detector is just a knee jerk emotional reaction that does nothing, and they're so expensive. Yes, you may get a grant from the federal government or even a state government saying, Hey, you can use it for security. Don't use it on metal detectors. Use it for special resource officers.

Number one,

they've got things that are, automatic door locks. They've got apps out there that automatically call the police. Just be very aware and test this thing and research it. Don't go buy. a company that's gonna tell you I can put an app on your phone that's gonna make your school safe.

No such thing. Nothing's a hundred percent Train your people correctly. Drill correctly, and you'll do much better.

So what's your overall thought about just being in the world today and I mean, you don't go to school, but you go grocery shopping, I'm sure, and you go to doctor's offices and you go around and are you more anxious and worried about. Making your way in the [00:40:00] world and sending your son to school than you were in previous decades.

Well, I'll tell you sometimes, but you really can't live your life in fear. You can't live your life. I'm just gonna stay inside my whole life because the world is dangerous. Look, the world is dangerous no matter what. that's just the way it is.

Be aware, be what they call situational awareness. If you go into a store where the exits, you go into a restaurant, where's the exit? Not the door you came into. Find another exit. Just look. That's all it's something that even I, after a time, relax too much and forget. But you know when, something happens you'll feel it.

you will. People say that it takes a special ability. It doesn't. You'll feel something in your gut, you know, something doesn't feel right. there's something wrong here. So when you go out, when you go to the movie theater, when you go to the mall, whatever, just remember where the exits are.

I know people are busy. They're shopping, they're looking for things, they're distracted by their kids, whatever.

But just think to yourself, okay, I noticed there's an [00:41:00] exit over there. Okay, I'll remember that. I know there's a back exit over there through the kitchen. I'll remember that.

it gotten worse?

Yeah. sure anybody could admit it's gotten worse. It's gotten worse from the pandemic, it's gotten worse from the mental health crisis. It's gotten worse because of the drugs. Yes, I think it's gotten worse, but I think we can keep yourself safe.

Anything could happen, but just try to be aware of, you know, your surroundings.

yeahI've learned so much from you, and I think we can all be a little more prepared

Good

Thank you so much for having me on, Elizabeth.

I think it's great that Daniel took his training from the Secret Service and is using it in service of others. Here are some of my takeaways from our conversation. Number one, treat everyone with respect, including, or maybe especially people who are working at a lower level than you. We really are all on the same team.

Two, [00:42:00] keep your options open. Even if you think you're retiring, your passions and interests may lead you to another opportunity. Three, don't complicate or confuse things. Use plain language. Kids are really, really smart. Four, for most people, drills and training lead to better outcomes. In the long run, being prepared is better than being scared.

And finally, number five, when you're in a public space, take a quick look around for where the exits are. It's a simple act that may help you in an emergency. I'd like to thank Daniel Dsky for sharing his experiences and his expertise with me. Clearly, we talked a lot about tips to help keep people safe in emergency situations.

How we got to this place is another discussion entirely. I feel that as Americans, we need to have a serious conversation and serious action about gun violence in this country. [00:43:00] If you'd like to learn more about Daniel and his book, which is called The First Five Minutes School Shooting Survival Guide for Administrators and Teachers, please check out the show notes for this episode on our website, what it's like to.net.

You can also find all of our past episodes there. If you wanna hear from someone else with a service background, please check out episode eight when Eric David shared about being in the military. I'd be so grateful if you'd subscribe to this podcast and tell a few friends about it too. I'm Elizabeth Pearson.

Gar. Thanks for being curious about what it's like.