What It's Like To...
What It's Like To...
What It's Like to Be Betrayed
Debi Silber experienced two major betrayals: first by her family, and then by her husband. What did she do next? She didn't just sit on her couch and wallow. She used her story as her own case study as she embarked on a PhD about betrayal; came up with groundbreaking discoveries; and eventually founded an institute to help others heal and transform from their own betrayals. In this episode, Dr. Silber shares her experiences with betrayal; why it feels so different from other forms of trauma; the discoveries she made about healing from betrayal; why she remarried her husband; and how the whole ordeal affected their kids.
In this episode:
- How and why Debi got into studying betrayal (03:24)
- Where Debi was in her life when all this happened (04:41)
- Why betrayal is different from other traumas (08:13)
- Why she remarried her husband: "rebuilding is always a choice" (10:06)
- How the betrayal affected their kids (12:24)
- Signs of post-betrayal syndrome (15:48)
- The five stages of betrayal (21:32)
- The importance of group support in moving through the stages (37:07)
Want to know more about Debi?
- Check out her website and business: https://thepbtinstitute.com/
- Read her books: https://thepbtinstitute.com/books/
- Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/debisilber/?hl=en
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Debi
We’ve all been taught time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. You cannot count on time. You can't even count on a new relationship to heal your betrayal. It will follow you around like a shadow until you deliberately and intentionally move through it.
Elizabeth
Hello, and welcome to “What It's Like To…”, the podcast that lets you walk in someone else's shoes and live vicariously through their unique experiences. I'm your host, Elizabeth Pearson Garr. In each episode, I'll be asking a new interviewee all the what, why, when, and where's of how they do what they do.
About 2 weeks into my freshman year of high school. I found a note in my locker. It was from the girl who had been my absolute best friend for the past 2 years. It basically read, Dear Elizabeth, I've decided not to be friends with you anymore. I am going to hang out with the fun girls. You can try to be friends with us too if you want.
I hadn't seen any of this coming. I was shocked. I was hurt. I was mad. I was humiliated. I felt betrayed. My guest today, Dr. Debi Silber experienced her own much more dramatic betrayal. Coincidentally enough, while she was writing a PhD thesis about betrayal. She went on to create the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, which helps people heal from betrayal.
Debi, welcome to the podcast.
Debi
Thank you so much. And I, I felt that high school pain when you shared that story.
Elizabeth
I mean, it was a while ago, but I remember it very acutely. So I think these betrayals, whether they're smaller or very large, they do stick with us and they affect us.
Debi
Absolutely. It really, the way it works is the more we trust and the more we depend on someone, the deeper the betrayal. So for example, a child who's totally dependent on their parent and the parent does something awful. That's going to have a different impact than let's say your coworker taking credit for your idea. Your best friend sharing your secret still betrayals, different level of cleanup left in the wake.
Elizabeth
Yeah, that makes sense. But it is based on that trust that you've shared and that you assume is there and will stay there. Can you go into a little bit of your story and how you initially even got interested in this topic? And then it came into your own life.
Debi
Yeah, you can imagine, you know, you don't say, I think I want to study betrayal. No, you study because you have to. So I've been in business over 30 years, health mindset, personal development. And then I had a really painful betrayal from my family. Thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that. And then it happened again a few years later. This time it was my husband. That was the deal breaker. Got him out of the house, looked at the two experiences thinking, okay, what's similar here? I mean, of course me, but what else? And I realized, you know, boundaries were always getting crossed. I never really took my needs seriously, and I'm one of those people that believes if nothing changes, nothing changes.
So, uh, like a book wasn't helping me out of this jam. I needed a whole PhD in it. So I enrolled in a PhD program in transpersonal psychology. The psychology of transformation and human potential because I was changing so much I didn't quite understand what was happening. He was too, wasn't really ready to look at that. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal and honestly I studied it because I was just trying to help myself and my family. You know, what holds us back, what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive.
That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries, which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.
Elizabeth
So when this happened I believe you were about 50 years old. You had four children, and you had a lot going on in your life. I could see some people just saying you know what I, I just need to deal with one thing at a time or sort of just go inward. You leaned in and you took this thing head on. Was that just part of your personality or did someone give you this advice? Like you need to work through this by fully understanding
Debi
No, the advice was, I mean, everybody, are you crazy? How in the world are you going to manage four kids, six dogs, a business? Like, are you really nuts? That's the only thing I heard. So I really, didn't want to share it with anybody after a few of those. And then I just. I don't know. I felt so pulled and I know when my intuition speaks, I better listen up and it was, it was like a calling. I don't know what it was the pull to do this and I didn't know how I was going to pay for it. I didn't know how I was going to manage the time, it was so strong. But I remember a point when I was well into the program and starting the study saying, I have no idea how I'm going to heal from this. But if I do, I'm taking everybody with me. Like it was just a knowing,
Elizabeth
It was probably that feeling like I've been through so much. If at least this can be worth something that I can share with other people. If my pain can be. Useful to others, it will have been at least a little bit worth it.
Debi
Absolutely. Like integrity is my highest value and I'm highly sensitive. So something like betrayal, it doesn't get worse, and this is going to sound so weird, but it wasn't even enough to heal. Like it, the injustice felt so great that the only way I can kind of move through to make peace with it was by helping millions of people. To me, it was like, okay, then that's trauma well served.
Elizabeth
And I wonder was a part of it too, there was the, of course, the very personal, emotional side, but then by studying it, you could maybe get a little bit outside of yourself and realize the more academic side of it too. Like this wasn't just a personal thing done to me. There's, physiological and psychological and emotional things going on and they happen to other people too. And it helped. Sort of, globalize it a little more and not feel quite so personal.
Debi
Well, it, it definitely felt personal, but I was implementing everything. This study was proving work. And I was excluding everything the study proved wasn't helpful. So I was really acting as my own case study as I was going through it. And then, you know, it's so funny how the universe works. Like all of a sudden you start attracting people to you, right? to bounce this stuff off of and all of a sudden the clients who were showing up we're all betrayed, but they were so heavily medicated or they were really, it was like repeat betrayals. And that was just a lifelong experience for them. And they kept asking me, you know, how are you doing this? And I was just sharing what I was learning and what I was implementing. And then when the discoveries happen and specifically the third one, and I'll go through them if you want to hear about them.
Elizabeth
Yeah, I'd love that.
Debi
Like, how do you go learning stuff like that and keeping it to yourself? it just felt wrong. And I'm so private and personal, but it just felt like I clearly didn't stumble upon this just for my own self like that would have felt way too selfish.
Elizabeth
So you, created this study as part of your, PhD work and then you came upon these revelations can you tell us some of what those are?
Debi
So the first discovery was that I had a feeling betrayal was a very different type of trauma I had been through death of a loved one I'd been through disease and I was like betrayal feels different for me I didn't want to assume it was the same for everybody in my study So I asked them if you've been through other traumas does betrayal feel different for you?
Unanimously they said, Oh my gosh, it's so different. And here's why. Because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally. So the entire self get shattered and has to be rebuilt. Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust, they're all destroyed. You don't think about it. If you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. Life will never be the same. You don't necessarily question the whole relationship. You don't necessarily question your ability to trust. You don't question your sanity. With betrayal you do. So that type of healing needed its own name, which is now called post betrayal transformation. The complete rebuild of your life and yourself after an experience with betrayal.
So the first discovery was that betrayal is in fact a very different type of trauma that needs a very different type of healing.
Elizabeth
Yeah. That's true. Because like you say, a death, it's not done to you. It's a natural part of the human existence. I know you have studied betrayers as well. And it's as much about them as it is about the person who they are betraying I'm sure.
Debi
Oh, It's, it's all about them. It's all about all about them.
Elizabeth
It's all about all about them.
Debi
A betrayal will show you who someone truly is. It also has the opportunity to wake them up to who they temporarily became. If that's the case, you really do have something to work with if you want to, you don't have to do anything, but if they've been caught or whatever, and they're just onto the next, you have nothing to work with there, so you need to heal yourself and move along. And just to close the loop on my story, rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild yourself and move on. That's what I had to do with my family. It wasn't an option to rebuild with them. Or if the situation lends itself, if you're willing, if you want to, you rebuild something from the ground up new with the person who hurt you. And that's what I did with my husband. Not long ago is two totally transformed people. We married each other again, new rings, new vows, new dress. And our four kids in our bridal party.
Now, never in a billion years would I have done anything like that if he wasn't totally changed and if I wasn't either, but people are so afraid of that death and destruction of the old, that's the only way you birth the new.
Elizabeth
And like you say, both people have to be willing to go through that process and to do the
work. There's no point in just diving into the old self because the pattern could remain.
Debi
Well, and often does, and repeat betrayal is a clear sign of an unhealed betrayal and people are so afraid of the truth, like, Oh my gosh, is the relationship over? Yes. Yes, it is.
People are so afraid. They're so scared. They're so heartbroken. And most, many couples, counselors, well meaning, will say, you just need to communicate better. And meanwhile, the person's like, are you joking? So best case scenario, the entire relationship has crashed and burned because betrayal meant the end of it. You do all you can to heal physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually. That person does too. It's an entirely different relationship. But what happens is…
Elizabeth
It’s like you're new people.
Debi
Somebody will grow and they're like, Oh, I'm outgrowing my betrayer. So they sabotage themselves, you do this without any, any understanding, of what this person is going to do. If they're able, willing, ready, whatever, they will too. And that's a 2.0 relationship.
Elizabeth
In your instance, like you said, you remarried your husband. And so for you or for someone like you with a family member, a partner, how does someone have the wherewithal to give that person another chance? you have to have the faith in the person that they are also doing that work with you.
Debi
Yeah. Well, like I said, I mean, I've been through death of a loved one. I've been through disease, I've been betrayed and I healed and moved on. Nothing, nothing was as hard for me as healing and rebuilding. It is a reckoning, a reckoning of yourself, your ego, your prior relationship, it's kind of obvious when someone.
Truly, takes full and complete responsibility, regret, remorse, like they've owned it and you see and feel and experience the changes because it's, it's so obvious in not necessarily the big things in the little things. Like my kids, you know, in the beginning they were like. Mom, dad's just so weird. Like he's, he's just talking to everybody, but don't screw up your life and do this. And just the things he was doing and it was so dramatically different and I questioned it myself and because trust is shattered, you question everything. But I was like, wait a second my changes are very, very real. So is it possible if I can truly change that? He can too? And I think the reason he changed, to the extent that he did, he was the one who told our kids, if anything is going to have you wake up and realize what matters, it's losing everyone that mattered to you.
Elizabeth
Yeah. Isn't that the truth?
Debi
You know cause, yeah you know, four teenagers looking at you like you did what? to mom? If anything is going to have you wake up. That's a pretty big wake up call. You know, I believe every family knows best, but what I see so often is the betrayed, whether it's a man or a woman, the betrayed doesn't want everybody else to look at the betrayer differently, so they struggle and suffer in silence. If there is a beautiful recipe for illness and disease, it's that one. And I get it, we do that. I did that in the beginning because you are so ashamed. You're so humiliated. And everybody loves that person. So you're like, well, who am I now to say the truth? It's really a hard thing. And you know who someone is also if they're okay with that. That's not someone who owns it.
Elizabeth
Yeah. they're letting you protect them or protect their reputation.
Debi
It's enabling both of them. It really is.
Elizabeth
How are your kids doing now through this? They're adults, aren't they?
Debi
Yeah, they are. And you know, it's like we're making up for so much lost time.
We're having so much fun. The kids are all like best friends because they've all been through war together, you know? And now it's just a really fun time.
Elizabeth
That's fantastic. Yeah. And you have such a story to tell.
Debi
And they all know it, they all know it. And it's made them so much more resilient in their own way because they, saw me crash, but they saw me rise. Then they've learned so many lessons about, strength and forgiveness and growth.
Elizabeth
Working through hard times. That's part of life.
Debi
And he actually had to rebuild his relationship with all the kids, you know, in a very new and different way. So they've gone through a lot with both of us.
Elizabeth
Now I got off track on the discoveries. You mentioned one. So now let's circle back to number 2.
Debi
Sure. So the second one was that there's a collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional so common to betrayal, it's known as post betrayal syndrome. We've had tens of thousands of people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. And what's interesting about the study is, first of all, we've all been taught time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. You cannot count on time. You can't even count on a new relationship to heal your betrayal. It will follow you around like a shadow until you deliberately and intentionally move through it.
Imagine thousands and thousands of people, just about every country's represented, men and women, 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hyper vigilant, that's exhausting. 94% deal with painful triggers and those triggers can take you right down.
The most common physical symptoms: 71% have low energy. 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue. So you go to sleep, you wake up, you're exhausted. Your adrenals have tanked. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, you can't hold food down. Later on, you're using food for comfort. You're emotionally eating. 45% have a digestive issue and that could be anything. Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, you name it.
The most common mental symptoms: 78% are overwhelmed, 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief, 68% can't focus, 64% are in shock, 62% can't concentrate. So imagine you can't concentrate, you have a gut issue, you're exhausted, your kids are counting on you, you still have to show up at work every day.
Elizabeth
Yeah, these numbers are high.
Debi
Super high. Wait till you hear this round. Emotionally: 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry. And you could bounce back and forth between those two all day long. 82% feel hurt. 80% have anxiety. 79% are stressed. Just a few more. Here's why I wrote the book ‘Trust Again’: 84% have an inability to trust. That just killed me. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how.
Elizabeth
It is just heartbreaking. And this is something that has been done to you. And then a lot of people might feel like, why do I have to do all this work to build myself up again, but that's really the only path.
Debi
And the reward is part of the third discovery, which I'll share, but just to wrap up the second study, those numbers were super high. You didn't hear me say one thing, 20, 30%. What's even crazier is this isn't necessarily from a recent betrayal. This could be from the parent who did something awful when you were a kid.
This could be from that friend who left that note for you, in high school, that person may not, care, remember they may not even be alive. And here we are decades later with symptoms from something that that person did all those years ago. That's the biggest crime. Now the good news is you can heal from all of it, and that's what the third discovery was about.
Elizabeth
Yeah, I was thinking about that was you were going through the numbers. I thought I wonder how recently these betrayals were. And then, you know, my little example that did hit me. I wouldn't say I'm still hurt by it. But as I was thinking it through this morning, I thought, I wonder if she even remembers it. You know, my former best friend, I thought to her, it was maybe nothing. And this story has so stuck with me. I tell my own kids about it to not be a friend like that. And, you know, it's become sort of an educational thing. It hasn't harmed me because fortunately another girl came and we became friends and it all worked for me, but other more profound betrayals, like you say, they can stay with you for decades.
Debi
Even in that experience, you could have put the big wall up saying, you know what, I can't trust anybody. I trusted this friend a hundred percent and she just pulled the rug right out from under me. It is not safe to trust. And you could have lived an entire life keeping people at a distance because of that experience. I mean, that's just one example.
Elizabeth
I can see that happening, especially like in a romantic relationship I can understand why people would do that. The pain is so great.
Debi
And that's why we keep people at a distance because our heart was so broken that we just can't even imagine risking that level of vulnerability to take that hit on our heart again. So, we feel it's better just to keep people at a distance and that's not fair to you. So, either repeat betrayals or keeping people at a distance, the big wall goes up. Classic sign of an unhealed betrayal.
Elizabeth
Yeah. So the 3rd, discovery?
Debi
This to me by far was the most exciting and what was discovered was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, like so many people do, if we're going to fully heal and by fully heal, I mean symptoms of post betrayal syndrome, like I shared to that fully healed, completely rebuilt place of post betrayal transformation. We're going to go through five now proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every one of those stages. And we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable.
Elizabeth
I feel like a lot of us know about the stages of grief. And those are the five stages people hear, but I don't think I'm aware of the stages with betrayal.
Debi
I wasn't either until they showed up in the study. And it's interesting because grief has such an important role bringing you from one stage to the next. Here's a boiled down version:
So stage one is actually before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, what I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing, and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling. The table only has two legs. It's easy for that table to topple over. That's unstable.
Stage two, shock, trauma, D Day, Discovery Day. Stage two is the scariest of all of the stages. Everybody remembers that moment. You remember getting that note, right? People remember getting that news. And it's, terrifying. And it's the breakdown of the body. The mind and the world view right there, you've ignited the stress response. You're now headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. You cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned. This makes no sense. And your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model. Trust this person. This is how life works. These are the rules. And in one earth shattering moment or series of moments, every rule you've held to be real and true is no longer. The bottom is truly bottomed out on you. And a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. So this is terrifying. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone you could to stay safe and stay alive. And that's stage three survival instincts emerge. It's the most practical out of all of the stages. You can't help me get out of my way. Can I trust you? Where do I go? How do I feed my kids? it is practical. t Here's the trap though. Stage three, by far, hands down is the most common place we get stuck. And here's why. Once you've figured out how to survive your experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where you just came from, you think it's good. You're like, okay, okay, we've got this.
Elizabeth
Oh, Like I've made it. I can breathe again.
Debi
I've made it. Yes, exactly. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage four or stage five, transformation doesn't even begin until stage four, but because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we plant roots here, we park here, we're not supposed to, but we don't know that. And four things start to happen. The first thing is you get all those small self-benefits. You get to be right. You get your story, we like our story, you get someone to blame, you get a target for your anger, you get sympathy from everybody, you know, and on some level it feels good. So you plant deeper roots here.
You're not supposed to, but you don't know that. And now that you're here longer than you should be, the mind starts doing things like, well, you know, maybe I'm not a good friend. Maybe I'm not fun or cool or whatever. Maybe I deserve, maybe this, maybe that, right? And so you start believing it. And you plant deeper roots now because these are the thoughts you're thinking, well, this is the energy you're putting out. Like energy attracts like energy. So now you start calling situations and circumstances and even relationships towards you to confirm. Yep. This is exactly where you belong. This is where the misery loves company crowd. They find you now, that lame support group. Like the in an awful club where we just complains, you find them and you join it and think about what happens. You kind of stay here because now you found your people.
Debi
And you will actually sabotage your success. Because, well, now I have my people in there here. So if I do this, I'm going to lose them. it gets worse, but I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad, but we don't know there's anywhere else to go. Right here is where we resign ourselves for like, this just stinks, but I have to get through my day. So right here is where we start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, anything to numb, avoid and distract ourselves. So we do it for a day, a week, a month. You know, a year, 10 years, 20 years, and I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing or that numbing in front of the TV, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. They would say I'm 20 years ago. I'm over it. All they do is put themselves in stage three and stay there.
Elizabeth
It makes total sense, but it's heartbreaking.
Debi
And all the symptoms of post betrayal syndrome, all the repeat betrayals, all the mindset issues, all the physical symptoms, it is all because we have glued ourselves to stage three.If all you're doing is unpacking and unpacking and unpacking your story, I want to be heard. I just need to be heard. We have proven that if anything glues you to stage three. It's just going over your story endlessly without that strategic plan to move forward. You're reconfirming your trauma every time, reconfirming that victim's stance.
Elizabeth
Is it also almost like, building those grooves in your head? Like this is my story. This is my truth. And the more I tell it and the more people believe this is now where it's permanently lodged.
Debi
Yeah, you're revalidating it and you're giving it more life every single time. And you're building neural networks that becomes your programming. We never want to be without an identity. Well, that's the identity you've created. And now you solidify it every time you talk about it more without doing something different to grow from it, to do any sort of shift that brings you towards stage four. You've been through the worst of it already. It's like, why in the world would you stop at just this stuck space? You owe it to yourself to the transformation, which is waiting for you in stages four and stage five.
Elizabeth
I just find this so interesting, even if you haven't had a betrayal, just how you look at yourself or how you look at your life is important. And the stories you tell about yourself, what you've done the last 10 years or what your career path has been. I feel like some people can get in a very negative groove or I just do this, or I'm only a that, it all kind of feeds into these pathways that you're forming, you have to be very cognizant of the stories you're telling about yourself.
Debi
Exactly. and to your point, it doesn't even have to be this big traumatic betrayal that puts you in that place. For example, I'm going to give you an example that probably happened to so many people. Let’s say you're 10 years old and you have some earth shattering news to share with your mom and you run into the kitchen and she's on the phone and she's, she shushes you. You could have interpreted that to mean, I don't matter. So think about this, then you think, I don't matter. I don't matter. Your mind looks for confirming evidence to support the idea. You don't matter. You infuse it with some emotion and then your mind's like, Oh, I didn't realize you want this playing all day. No worries. Go about your business. I'll put this in your subconscious and make it a belief. And so now you have a belief, I don't matter. So if you feel you don't matter, well, what kind of friendships will you have? What kind of relationships will you tolerate? What kind of job will you tolerate? So that example you gave could be from something as simple, as, the miscommunication of that shushing.
Elizabeth
That is so interesting. Okay. I'm going to get you back on to, the fourth discovery.
Debi
Good, because I didn't want to leave everybody on stage 3, we have to keep going.
Elizabeth
Yeah. We don't want to stay there.
Debi
No, no. Okay. So if you are willing to let go of the story and all it gives you, here's where grieving comes in You move to stage four stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge: I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Right in that decision, you start turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you stopped the massive damage you've been creating in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo apartment, like all your stuff's not there. It's not cozy, but you're like, okay, okay, we got this. We can do this. It feels like that. And what's so interesting is think about this. If you were to move, you don't take everything with you, right? You don't take those things that you're like, you know, this doesn't represent who I want to be in my new space. And there's one spot going from stage three to stage four, where if your friends, weren't there for you, you've outgrown them right here. You don't take them with you. And people say to me all the time, what the heck I've had these friends 10, 20, 30 years isn't me. Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation and if they don't rise, you don't bring them. They don't come very common to outgrow friendships and feel like a fish out of water because now all of a sudden you were deliberate and intentional about who you want around you and like that support group that was keeping you stuck. You've outgrown them. The complainers, the ones who just believe they're destined to only have repeat betrayals, things like that, you don't want that. You're in a different energetic space when you're in this space and you're making it mentally home, cozy. You move into the 5th. Most beautiful stage. And this is healing rebirth and a new world view. The body starts to heal self love, self care, eating well, exercise. You didn't really have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now you do. Your mind is healing. You're making new rules. You're making new boundaries based on the road you just traveled and you have a new world view based on everything you see so clearly now and the four legs of the table in the beginning was all about the physical and the mental. By this point, we're solidly grounded. Because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages.
Elizabeth
I loved that analogy of moving to a new place. I moved many times in my 20s and early 30s. I kept moving for different career opportunities. And there's an attitude you can have a worldview of sort of like, Oh, I have to move again. But I always saw it as I was moving for opportunity. And so it was kind of, Oh, it's a fresh start. And so if you look at it that way, also like you said you're not going to bring everything. You're not going to bring the baggage. you sort of sort through and get rid of what you don't need for the new place. And you look and think, what am I going to create here? Again, we can all do that at any place we are in our lives, even if we're not healing from a betrayal. It's a wonderful, viewpoint to have of like, let's just move forward and get rid of the things we don't need.
Debi
Exactly. And that's why, it is so common for us to see in stage four, stage five, that's where new levels of health, we'll see it every single day, new relationships with someone new or with the person who hurt you, you had a very different level, new businesses. If I tell you how many new businesses are birthed in stage four and stage five, It's because you don't have access to all of that when you're just stuck in your trauma, when you move through and you're like, if I can do that, what else is available to me? And you know, I'm stronger than I think I'm more confident. I'm more this, more that I always wanted to do this and that, you're moving through, I mean, you truly are transforming and there are so many levels and layers of us that we never have access to when we're just swarming around stage three.
Elizabeth
Well, also going back to when you were giving all those figures, those really sad percentages of where people were initially.
So much of that probably clears up, and so physically and mentally and emotionally You're so much more available by the time you get to four and especially stage five. You're getting better rest, you're eating better your whole body is functioning better and your mind and so you literally have energy and time to do more. I mean when you're depressed and feeling terrible, you really can't function very well.
Elizabeth
Exactly. And you know, it's so interesting to even when you're in stage two and stage three, you have such accelerated aging. So many people say, my gosh, I looked 10 years older. And then what's so interesting is as they heal, it reverses, and they get this youthful glow back. And it's so common because that amount of stress. What it's. Doing to your immune system, on so many different levels. It's just depleting you in every single way. Plus you add on the anxiety and the lack of sleep and the digestive issues and all of these things, and then when people move through these stages, the profound level of healing shifts that have happened, it's incredible. And I, I will tell you, It just reminded me of this. There were three groups in the study who did not heal. One was the group where they ran to the doctor who put them on a mood stabilizer or anti-anxiety medication. They were numbing, you know, it may have made the day a bit easier to get through, not without a price They didn't heal because they they didn't really face it head on. The second, this was the group, they had their story, they were sticking with it. They were. Deeply committed to stage three, they stayed, they didn't heal, the third group, this was the group where the betrayer had very little consequences. So whether it was out of financial fear, not wanting to break up a family, religious reasons was a big one. fear of the unknown. They just tried to turn the other cheek, tried to put it beside them, tried to just not see it, feel it, hear it. I saw two things with this group. A further deterioration of the relationship, and this group by far was the most physically sick.
Elizabeth
So you're saying in that third instance, they stayed with the betrayer?
Debi
They stayed with the betrayer for religious reasons, financial reasons, whatever. They were so much more physically sick than the others. Your broken heart can't handle that. Easy now, hard later, hard now, easy later. Take your pick. It's going to be one of those two. And even though the betrayal is so painful to neglect your own heart and your own feelings and denying yourself, the truth and what a relationship could look like, maybe if it all does crash and burn and get rebuilt. It's easier to just not look, not deal, as opposed to hard now, that's it. that's the deal breaker. you know, hard now. Easy later, you've moved through stage five, you've created an entirely new version of you. You've collectively built a new relationship. Easy later, up to you.
Elizabeth
You have to have a lot of faith in yourself, probably, that you can get through these stages, that you will get through them. because I can see someone being so broken, naturally, from the betrayal, brokenhearted and just dejected, to not have the strength to feel how am I going to get through this day to that next thing and then to feel, do I really have it in me to keep going? And so it's nice that you have these steps laid out and the examples of so many people that have gone through for people who are maybe in it, who have have just been betrayed or are kind of in stage to like, don't give up. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
Debi
And if anything moves you, through the stages, it's that wind of others who are doing it, others who are rooting you on and you feel, okay, I'm not alone, i'm not crazy. I'm in a club I never wanted to be in, but everybody has the intention to move. It’s very difficult to do on your own, support is, so helpful. The right type of support, the wrong type of support does way more harm than good.
Elizabeth
So is the most severe feeling of betrayal from a romantic relationship?
Debi
You know, originally in the study, I was studying the, betrayals of a family member, partner or friend. And I actually had to drop the friend part because as angry as a friend can get, you could be infuriated, you'd be so mad. You could be so hurt. They don't, break you like the family members or the partners. Those are the two big ones.
Elizabeth
So what would you recommend to somebody who's just newly hurt how long can someone sort of wallow and feel terrible what should they do to kind of start moving forward?
Debi
You can wallow forever. That's what many people do. you can move through all the stages in six months. The timeline is really based on your willingness. Some people think, Oh, it's got to take 10, 20, 30 years. No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. There's a roadmap there's a shortcut. So if you want it, it's just the willingness to move through the stages. Some stages may take a bit longer and that's totally okay. The way it works with the stages is you outgrow one as you move into the next.
Elizabeth
It's just sort of natural because you are moving forward, you've progressed.
Debi
And I don't want to make it seem like it's graceful and pretty because it's not, it's not this gentle beautiful movement. But you're moving forward for sure.
I know how painful it is. Oh my gosh, I look at it as one of the most painful of the human experiences because this was the person you trusted a hundred percent. But I also know how good it feels in stage five. And I also see so many success stories. If you're just willing to move through the stages, you owe it to yourself. To have that level of health and confidence and happiness and trust, that you deserve. So it's waiting for you in stage five.
Elizabeth
Well, thank you so much, Debbie. I've learned so much from you and I think it'll really help a lot of people to understand these stages and thank you for sharing everything you've been through too.
Debi
Thank you so much.
I'd like to thank Debbie Silber for taking what she learned from her personal experiences and helping others. Here are some takeaways from our conversation.
1) If you've been through something really painful, sharing how you healed may feel like trauma well served.
2) Unhealed betrayals can keep paying unwanted dividends for years on end.
3) Be aware of the stories you're telling yourself about who you are. They're powerful and formative.
4) Have faith in yourself that transformation is possible, even though the path isn't always graceful and pretty.
5) Don't let someone else permanently steal your belief in the goodness in other people.
If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Debbie Silber and the Post Betrayal Transformation Institute, just go to our website, whatitsliketo.net, or check out the show notes for this episode. We also have links to all our past episodes there. If you like listening to interviews with people who have overcome personal hardships, check out episode 52, when Gregory Nottage shared about being imprisoned for a murder he didn't commit. And episode 53, when Dr. Joyce Michael Flynn talked about surviving a death event.
If you're enjoying this podcast, please subscribe and tell a few friends about it, too.
I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr. Thanks for being curious about what it's like.