What It's Like To...

What It's Like To Travel for a Living

• Karen Gershowitz • Season 6 • Episode 13

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Lots of people say they “like to travel”... but most probably can’t claim they're “travel addicts.” Karen Gershowitz has earned that title by visiting more than 95 countries–many of them numerous times!  She’s worked her career around traveling, and is now a travel writer. She has also published two books about her travels. In this episode Karen shares tales from her adventures and gives tips all travelers can use to have authentic experiences--from taking public transportation, to eating at communal tables with locals, to the benefits of "getting lost."

In this episode:

01:50--How and why Karen found a career to support her travel habit

02:48--The genesis and growth of Karen's love of travel

04:47--Tips for finding your way in a new town (take public transportation, sit at communal tables)

08:37--The beauty of allowing yourself to get lost and pivoting when things go "wrong"

12:40--Karen's thoughts on planned itineraries vs. being spur of the moment

15:08--Plan your trip around what you love (food, sports, art, history, etc.)

17:39--Be curious about a place and about people

18:39--Test case: planning a trip for a fictitious traveler

24:39--Tips for traveling in non-English-speaking countries

26:30--Thoughts on traveling solo vs. with friends vs. with groups

27:55--Journaling while traveling

30:30--Places Karen would like to visit, and places she never wants to return 

34:42--Tips for dealing with jet lag

37:20--Becoming a travel writer (books and articles)

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Karen:

I love having new experiences and I'm learning all the time and I'm just making all these interesting connections and, it's an addiction. It is a true addiction. And if I don't travel for a while, I start to go really crazy.

Elizabeth:

Hello, and welcome to"What It's Like To..." The podcast that lets you walk in someone else's shoes and live vicariously through their unique experiences. I'm your host, journalist Elizabeth Pearson Garr. And each episode, I'll be asking a new interviewee all the what, why, when, and wheres of how they do what they do. If they can do it, so can you. Lots of us may say we like to travel, but most of us probably can't claim we are travel addicts. My guest today, Karen Gershowitz, has earned that title by visiting more than 95 countries, many of them numerous times. She's worked her career around traveling and is now a travel journalist. She has also published two books about her travels. Karen, I seem to have caught you at a rare moment at home. Welcome to my podcast.

Karen:

Yeah, if it had been last month, you would not have gotten me at home.

Elizabeth:

Well, I'm glad to meet you. Thank you for being here. I think I know your type because my dad, I think, we could call a travel addict. Thinking about him and other people that are maybe of this sort, I think people are interested in travel and travel excessively for various reasons. Maybe get into it because they love history, culture, or maybe they love studying languages. What really got you interested?

Karen:

Culture, for sure. I love being new places, seeing new things, interacting with people. My career where I actually earned money, was as a marketing person, but mainly for strategy. So I interviewed loads and loads and loads of people and I love talking with people. And so going to a place that I've never been to before and interacting with people on whatever level is something that I truly, truly enjoy. Whether it's across the globe, or it's another part of the U.S. Because people are quite different in different places.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, I thought that was fascinating when I was doing a little research about you. You chose that career deliberately, didn't you? So it would allow you to travel and afford you this opportunity to indulge your desire to travel.

Karen:

Yeah. I often say that I'm an addict and I don't want a cure. Um.

Elizabeth:

You're an addict in all the best ways.

Karen:

In all the best ways. But I started traveling very, very young. When I was 17, I moved by myself to Europe and ended up spending three years there. Had a fabulous time and that was when things were really cheap if you were a student. So I traveled all over Europe. Then I came back to the U.S. for my undergraduate degree, which was in ceramics of all things. And, the first summer that I was there, I managed to finagle the school into sending me to Japan, which is a long story, but I wanted to see all these ceramics that the professor was talking about, so I went off to Japan for six weeks and loved it. And after that, I was so totally hooked. I had to figure out a way that somebody else was going to pay for the travel, quite frankly.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, it's not cheap.

Karen:

So I was looking for a career that would allow me to do all of this traveling without it being a burden, without it being, you know, just incredibly difficult, and I worked my way up over a period of about, five, six years to having good positions within the world of marketing, but especially working with international clients. And within 10 years, that was what I was doing.

Elizabeth:

And then when you find yourself in a foreign country. Actually, I guess it could be domestically too, travel is travel. You could go to the state next door and it could be completely fascinating. But when you find yourself somewhere new, you have some great strategies of being able to dive in and open yourself up to these new opportunities. One that I read is: Take public transportation. Can you go into some of these ideas that you have? Because I think often what can happen is we could almost have the same experience we have at home across the world, you know, eat at McDonald's in Paris if you want to, and it can not even be that different, but you have ways that we can really experience different cultures in

Karen:

depth. I'd be happy to give you a few of my, the things that, and it's funny'cause I teach a class on travel and it's largely about how do you find your way in a place that you don't know at all and really interact with people. So one of them is taking public transportation, but not necessarily because you want to go to a destination. What you do is you take public transportation with no idea where it's going particularly, and if you see something interesting, get off. Works better with buses than subways clearly, but on a bus, just take it and get off randomly and walk around the neighborhood, sit at a cafe. And if you're in a country that they don't speak English, bring a book with you that you can be reading that has a title prominently in English on it, but don't look so intently at the book that nobody wants to disturb you. So you kind of look down, you look up, look around a little bit. People will come over because they want to practice English. And if you go to a university campus, I can guarantee people will come over, because they all want to practice. Go to a restaurant that has a communal table. And sit at a communal table. People would not be sitting there unless they were willing to chat. And what I discovered was that if you go on to Yelp or some of these other places, you can look for listings of restaurants that have communal tables. So that's a great way to meet people.

Elizabeth:

Great tips. Do you think it takes a certain kind of person, though? I mean, would you consider yourself a real extrovert? Someone who's willing to just meet people wherever you are and step out of your comfort zone?

Karen:

It isn't out of my comfort zone because of my career. I think before my career, it would have been. But because I was talking to people who I never would have met in unlikely places, for unlikely reasons, and I had to be the one who was starting the conversation, I got very good at it. I'll tell you a very funny story. I said to a friend, I can make anyone talk about anything for an hour. And she said, I'll make you a bet. I bet you can't. I said, okay, what are we betting for? Well, we're betting for dinner. I said, you're on. Her topic was canned peas. After a half an hour, she gave up and said, Oh my God, you're right. You could make me talk for three hours about this.

Elizabeth:

I love this bet. I think we should all challenge someone to have a conversation with someone because it really is a wonderful skill to have. I was just at a dinner the other night, my husband and I got split up. It was assigned seating. And he said, Oh, no, because I'm usually the talker in the two. And I said, you need to know how to talk to people you don't know.

Karen:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's a really good skill to have. And it's fun. Once you get over the, Oh, no, what are they going to think? People are fun and they'll tell you fun stories. And if they know you're traveling and you say, You're a local, I know what's in the guidebooks. Tell me something to do that's not in the guidebooks. They will. Oh, well, have you heard about this? Well, what do you like? Oh, I like gardens. Oh, there's this great garden that only the locals know and they'll draw me maps. And, it's kind of amazing what people are happy to share with you.

Elizabeth:

Probably, it's one of those things that the more you do it, the more confidence you have to keep doing it and the more fun you have doing it. Like, maybe the first time, whether you're alone or you're with a partner or a friend or something, you're maybe a little more, leery of, Oh, is this going to work? Do I feel uncomfortable, but then you have some good experiences, chatting with some strangers, them showing you a local park or a local pub or whatever it might be. Then I can imagine the next time you just feel like this is such a fun way to go about it rather than looking at my Michelin guide and checking off the top five sites that I'm supposed to see.

Karen:

Exactly. And the idea of getting lost is a really good one. I mean, even if I'm driving, and this is a fairly recent example. I was up in Vancouver and on Vancouver Island and I'd been there, but I'd been to the lower half of it, but I'd never been to the Northern part. And I was visiting someone and when I was going back South, I said, you know, I've got a bunch of time. I'm just going to take all back roads. I'm not going to use GPS, I'm just going to take back roads, and I have a reasonably good sense of direction. And so I started driving, and I saw a sign for a woodworker. And I thought, oh, that's interesting, I'll go see if I can find the woodworker. And then I see another sign for a potter. And then I see another sign for a weaver. Well, it turns out this is a mountain with dirt roads. It's not in anybody's guidebook, I guarantee it. But it was all craftspeople. And I found the woodworker, found the potter, found the weaver. They said, Oh, well, you got to go visit my friend so and so. You'd love their studio. And I spent an entire afternoon with all these craftspeople, which I love. And it was something I would never have found except that I just said, I'm just going to wander. And whatever piques my interest, I'm going to follow.

Elizabeth:

And I think sometimes these literally off the beaten track escapades that we have end up being the best experiences and stories that we end up having, even when things go"wrong." They're the most fun sort of family tales that we have. This last summer we were in Wales. And the only reason we ended up there, because we had a few overnights in London. And I asked my friend who's English, where should we go that's not London per se. We don't want to do what everyone does. And she said, Oh, well, Brits often holiday in Wales. So let me tell you a few places to go. I said okay. Well, let's holiday like a Brit. So we went to this area where we were the only Americans. People would say, Oh, your accents are so exotic and all this. My kids still talk about how we were on these country lanes where we kept getting lost. And, it was almost more fun than being in London where we ran into all these Americans and we were sort of among the hordes. Because we didn't know what we were doing and we were just bumbling around and it was just really memorable.

Karen:

Oh yeah. Those are some of the best times. And thing you were saying, when things go wrong. Recently, I was on a writing assignment in Louisiana, and they had arranged a whole bunch of things for me to do. And one day I was supposed to be taking a tour. Now mind you, I didn't particularly want to go on it, because I've been in New Orleans many times. But they had set it up. So I was going to do this. Well, I took an Uber cause I was quite a distance and the traffic totally stopped, couldn't get there. The Uber driver talks to a police woman who's standing there. And she said, Oh, well, there's a parade. It's a Christmas parade. Well, can we get to such and such a place? And she said, not really, but walk it. It's not very far. So I got out and I started to walk. And, when I got there, there's nothing going on and I call the number and they say, Oh, didn't you get the note that you have to meet us over in this place as opposed to there? I said, no, I never got any information back and there's no way I can get there on time. I said, sorry, but I won't be there. So I watched the Christmas parade, which was a lot more fun, I think, than the tour would have been. They had all the bands and the bands are fabulous in New Orleans. Ahh--fabulous. But they also had the Rolling Elvi, which is a group of Elvis impersonators, were hilarious, and it was kind of a combination of Mardi Gras. They were throwing the beads and throwing the cups, and part Macy's Thanksgiving Parade because they had these phenomenal floats and it was pure New Orleans and it was such fun and you know, something had gone wrong. I could have gotten all upset because I couldn't get to where I was supposed to be. Or I could just enjoy the fact that there was something absolutely fabulous happening right in front of me. And so, of course, I did the thing that was right in front of me.

Elizabeth:

So that makes me think, do you tend to not plan your trips a lot? Do you not have a detailed itinerary, day to day? I'm going to do this in the morning and this in the afternoon.

Karen:

Not at all.

Elizabeth:

Not at all. Open schedules.

Karen:

Not at all. I do it all on the spur of the moment. If it's a rainy day, I'll go to a museum. If it's a nice day, I'll do something outside. I am not stuck to any schedule unless I know that it's something I absolutely want to do and that I may not get in unless I do it. I was in Milan and I wanted to see the very, very famous painting of the last supper and it is almost impossible to get into it. We made the reservations a month in advance. I was with a friend and that was something that, no matter what was happening, I needed to be there at a particular time. But that was only because I wanted to see that specific thing. But typically I don't do it at all. I just show up and whatever happens happens. I'm very much into whimsy and I look at the local papers. I look at Time Out in whatever place I'm going to, if it's a city, because they publish that all over the globe. I'll look at Meetup sometimes. Sometimes there are great Meetup groups, and that's going to be locals as opposed to foreigners. And it's just a wonderful way to connect with people. I like going to art museums. I like going to gardens. I like going to theater, concerts. But most of all, I love talking with people and I love going out and trying interesting food.

Elizabeth:

And you also suggest, I believe, you can get involved in an activity. For example, if you want to learn how to make a certain dish in the area or take an art class or something that you're interested in. Go to a concert or a sporting activity or something, I guess it's all about getting involved in the local culture or the atmosphere of the local region.

Karen:

I've taken cooking classes all around the globe. I just love it. And typically, if you take a cooking class, they will take you to a market. And then you've got somebody who can say, Oh, this is how we use this. And this is how we prepare this. And that's just great fun. And they also tell you what's a fake, for example, saffron in many countries is not saffron because saffron is very expensive. And what they'll do is they'll take another thing that looks like saffron and dye it to look that color.

Elizabeth:

Wow.

Karen:

And it's very common. And I was told, do not buy saffron unless you are absolutely sure that you're in a place that's selling you the legitimate thing.

Elizabeth:

Good tip.

Karen:

Yeah. But I often say to people, particularly people who want to travel by themselves and have never done it plan the trip around anything that you love and it doesn't matter much what it is. If you're into sports, go to sports events, go to sports events that you know nothing about, find someone and ask them a lot of questions. You will connect. If you are into food, take a cooking class, take an art lesson, take a music lesson. If you're into history, take walking tours, there are free walking tours all around the world and you give the guide a tip and you will learn more history, but there'll also be a group of people there and very often locals. I live in New York and lived here my whole life and I've taken walking tours in New York because it's an area of the city that I just don't know very well. Also, I love street art. In New York City, there is a phenomenal amount of street art and some of it is knock your socks off, it's gorgeous. And there are areas of the city, once I started researching it, that there are blocks and blocks and blocks of murals. I didn't even know they existed. So I was discovering my own city in a way that I had not known it.

Elizabeth:

Well, it's a great city to get to discover. But every place has things to discover that we don't know about. Every place does.

Karen:

I have a friend who lives in Fort Collins in Colorado, and I was there for a few days and said, well, what do you want to do? I said, well, I want to go up to Cheyenne, which is only about an hour drive. Cheyenne, why would you want to go to Cheyenne? I mean, literally, that was the answer. I said, because I read that they have murals. And I want to go see the murals. Well, we went up there. We had the best day. In addition to the murals, they had like 10 foot high cowboy boots that were painted and they were all over the city. We went to a restaurant that the food and the atmosphere was beyond great. And the people were friendly and we started chatting with the people at one table who said, Oh, well, you got to go see this and there's a great botanical garden. And at the other table, I got everybody around us talking. And, my friend was going, Oh, my God, I never knew And that night we had dinner and friends of hers came over. Well, what did you do today? We went to Cheyenne. Why did you go to Cheyenne?

Elizabeth:

And now your friend has an answer to"Why Cheyenne?"

Karen:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And she went back and took them.

Elizabeth:

You clearly have a special gift for being open and getting people talking, but I think we all could do that. If we all just sort of, took that step to try to be curious.

Karen:

Yeah. It's the curiosity that makes the difference. It really is. Instead of assuming that there's nothing in a place. Assume that there is something waiting to be discovered, and that you just have to figure out how to do it.

Elizabeth:

It's almost approaching travel from a different way, rather than tell me what I need to see, as in, okay, internet or guidebooks, give me the list and tell me what I need to see. It's almost like, I'm here and I'm here to explore what you have. It's kind of turning it on its head.

Karen:

Exactly. Now, I will say, there are certain things, I'm going to Spain in May, and I'm going for a conference, but while I'm there, I'm taking a detour because I have never seen the Whitney Museum in Bilbao and I want to see it. So it's not that I don't go see things, because I will, but I can guarantee that when I'm in Bilbao, I will discover things beyond the museum.

Elizabeth:

So can we do a little sort of test case? I want to see how you would plan a trip. Let's say my name is Julia and I love food and cooking and I'm going to go to Italy. I'm going to go to Tuscany. And I'll be there for 10 days or something. We don't need to go into great detail, but how much sort of pre planning would you do? I mean, you clearly need to do a little bit of research about where you're going to stay and a few restaurant reservations and whatnot. What recommendations would you give to Julia planning her trip? It depends on what time of year it is. If it is off season, you don't need to make reservations for anything. If it's during the height of the season, you better make a reservation for every night. Ah, such an important point. Yes.

Karen:

Off season, I would not make any reservations. I'd get there, start talking to people and have them tell me where to go.

Elizabeth:

Oh, what a lovely experience that would be. I mean, I have kids, so I'm always traveling in the high season of things, but to be able to travel like in October or February or something would be amazing.

Karen:

But if you are traveling in season, I would start looking up restaurants and trying to find places that maybe don't have the most reviews and the most stars. But when you look at it, and you look at the menu. The menu is offering you things that are not run of the mill. And you can see the pictures of the restaurant. And I mean, there's so much information available. You can almost go into information overload.

Elizabeth:

That's true.

Karen:

And I would not make myself nuts over that. I would just pick two or three places. I might look into cooking schools and your kids would probably love it too, depending upon their ages, but I've taken friends who don't like to cook and they've loved going to cooking classes because it's just fun. If it's hands on, that's the other thing. I always check to make sure that it's hands on. I don't want to just watch someone doing it.

Elizabeth:

Oh, right. And it's so practical. Even if you don't feel like you like cooking, you can always take it home and use it.

Karen:

Right, and usually you get to eat a great meal afterwards that you've prepared, so that's something I would do. I would find out what else Julia is interested in, and I would pick a hotel that's near where the places are that she's interested in, as opposed to picking the best hotel, because it's the best hotel. And I always look for a hotel that's near public transportation. I don't want to have to walk 10 blocks to a Metro or call an Uber every time I want to go somewhere. And I like taking public transportation. So I want to have the ability to walk a few blocks and take a bus, a Metro, a tram, whatever it is that's in the city. And I would also plan for possibly day trips out of the city. I've taken day tours, I don't object to them. And if it's going somewhere that's hard to get to, absolutely. Find somewhere that's out in the country that has something that would be of interest to you. If you're into history, go to a castle. If you're into nature, find a place that's gorgeous scenery and take a day trip. But it would be pretty loose. It would not be: this is what you're doing every single day, every single moment.

Elizabeth:

I think people can get overwhelmed. First of all, there's so much information that we can do research ahead of time. And also there's this feeling sometimes like I have to see it all, to see the historical things and the architecture and the art and the food and the culture. And there's just so much and I've got to squeeze it into this trip. And I think the reality is that that's impossible. And it's exhausting, And it's exhausting. So it's not fun.

Karen:

It is not fun doing it that way. You really want to plan it around what you care about. If you're not into art, why are you going to an art museum? I'm not into sports. Why would I go to a sports event? Seriously. I'm not into going to a brewery. I hate beer. I'll not go to a brewery. I don't care if it's the best brewery on the planet. I'm not going!

Elizabeth:

Don't waste your time, your money, your effort.

Karen:

Exactly, on the things that you don't care about and focus on what is going to make you happy. And the thing is, you also discover things. Now, this was quite a number of years ago, but I was in Prague, and I love puppets. I've always loved puppets. And I found out that Prague is like the home for marionettes. It has fabulous marionettes, and you see them selling them on the streets. And I went into the tourist bureau and I said, are there any puppet shows? She said, Oh, yes, they do the Marriage of Figaro with puppets and live music and live singers, but it's the puppets who are doing the acting with the singers and the music behind them. It was one of the best things I've ever seen. And I would never have known. And if I had been scheduled to do this and this and this and this, I would never have seen this. And again, it's really, what do I care about? What's fun? What is it that's going to make me feel like I'm having a really authentic experience about something that I care about?

Elizabeth:

That's a great word. An authentic experience. That is why we want to travel, right? Like I mentioned earlier, I threw in, McDonald's in Paris. Really, if we're just shopping at stores that we could go shopping at in an American mall in a different city, eating American food, kind of what's the point? What are we doing? We want something authentic in a different place.

Karen:

Absolutely. And, the other thing is, if you get tired during the middle of the day, don't feel guilty about going back to your hotel and sleeping for an hour or reading for an hour or just sitting over a cup of coffee for an hour. You don't have to be moving all of the time. Mind you, if you're going to have a cup of coffee, go to a cafe, sit outside, and people watch. I do that a lot. I love people watching. You don't have to be moving constantly. It's really okay not to. And people sometimes need the permission to just go have a good time.

Elizabeth:

What are your tips for being in non-English-speaking countries? You mentioned sometimes bringing a book, and being near a university, but if you're having language barriers, do you sometimes hire a translator or do you go on tour...?

Karen:

Yeah, I might go on a tour. The other thing is one of the things that I do always make sure when I'm booking a hotel is that there are people that are English-speaking on the staff of the hotel, always, because I can talk with them and say, Here's the kinds of things I'm interested in. Can you give me some suggestions? How do I get there? And Google Translate is a Godsend.

Elizabeth:

That is true. But more of a modern travel convenience. Take advantage of it. For years, I was traveling without all of this stuff. And, now that I have it, I wouldn't go back for anything because it really is a help. You don't want to be constantly looking at your phone, but there are situations where it really is helpful. The other thing for anybody who's really nervous about it, and it's something that I still do, you check into the hotel, the first thing you do is you get a business card from the hotel that's got their address and phone number on it so that if you get really lost, you take a taxi and you show them the card. That's your home base.

Karen:

That's your home base. And, I've had to do that on a few occasions. I've gotten myself lost and I've got a good sense of direction and I've gotten myself lost. But, most places, it would be hard for you to, just casually wander into a terrible place because they're not usually adjacent to the places that you'd be interested in going. I've only been stolen from once in my life. And it was in Japan of all places.

Elizabeth:

I was pickpocketed. So now, apart from everything else, I have a bag that has zippers on it with a little lock on it. And that's what I use when I'm traveling. Like a fanny pack kind of bag, or what do you carry around in the daytime?

Karen:

Just happen to have it with me, right here.

Elizabeth:

Sort of an over the shoulder type bag.

Karen:

Over the shoulder, and it's got a little hook, and you can lock it. And then it's got a pocket in the back that's right next to your body.

Elizabeth:

Do you tend to travel mostly solo or with other people?

Karen:

Sometimes I travel by myself. I have a couple of good friends who I travel with. I have occasionally gone on tours because it's somewhere like India, where I really did not want to go out on my own and China. Particularly China, because no one speaks English and, I can remember going with the group-- it was a small group. There were 10 of us and we went into the train station. And if I had not been with that group, my head would have been spinning. It was crowds of people like I have never seen. No signage in anything except Chinese. And I was lost. And I still remember the guide saying, when we enter the train station, we're going to be like sticky rice. Don't go away from the group. We'll never find you again. And she was right. Follow the directions, you Americans. Follow the directions. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, we walked in there and everybody saw exactly what she was talking about. So it really varies. It varies on where I'm going, what I'm going to be doing. I do a lot of solo travel. I happen to like solo travel, which always surprises people. But think about it. If you're sitting by yourself, it's much more likely that someone will come up to you. If you're sitting with someone else, you're part of a pairing and they're far less likely. That's when you really have to initiate conversations. I still can do it and I do it all the time, but traveling by myself, it's never an issue. The other thing is that every single morning when I travel, I write for an hour, and I've been writing a travel journal. My mother got me started when I was eight years old. We went to Florida to visit my grandmother and she said, you're not going to remember what we did. So I want you to write down what you did and draw pictures and whatever. And I did. And I've been doing it ever since. And she encouraged me my whole childhood And every trip I have taken-- not for business, but for fun, I have a journal from. and so, in my book, in both books, I go back to years ago and people say, how do you remember all these details? And I say, you want to see my journal?

Elizabeth:

I journal also, I haven't as much recently, but I used to do the same thing. Sometimes it feels like a chore at the time. I don't know if you still feel that way. If the hour sometimes feels like, oh, I'd rather be doing something else, but it's a treasure to have it. And once you get into it, it feels fun. If you're a writer, it does feel fun.

Karen:

Yeah, I really enjoy it. When I'm traveling, it is to capture whatever it was that I did the previous day. And it's not I did this. I did that. That's not interesting. It's, what did I experience? How did I feel about it? What happened that was really unusual? What did I notice in a place that I've been to? I mean, I lived in London for three years, so what did I notice that I didn't notice the last time I was here? So it's that kind of thing, which is a very different kind of travel journal than most people do. It's not a travelogue. It's really an experiential thing. And I think that's what travel really does. Like I mentioned, my parents still travel a lot. They're in their eighties and they love it. It's my father's favorite thing. And I've heard people say, why do people travel? You can just watch things on YouTube or watch it on TV. You can see the Great Wall of China. You can see Sydney Opera House and all this, but when you're in a place, you can never replicate that, the smells, the taste, talking to the person on the street corner, in the cafe. You can never replicate that experience by watching something. So it's an experience and I think for someone like you, you need to keep quenching that thirst. I am insatiable as they say! And I hope I am forever. For me, it's what makes life really interesting. I love having new experiences and I'm learning all the time and I'm just making all these interesting connections and, it's an addiction. It is a true addiction. And if I don't travel for a while, I start to go really crazy.

Elizabeth:

Where are some places that you've been that you can't wait to go back to? And then where are some places that you haven't been that are still on your list that you'd like to go?

Karen:

Well, I'll start with the haven't been to and want to go to. Now I give away my age. During the middle of the pandemic, I turned 70. And I had planned to go to the South Pacific Islands. I've wanted to do that for years, not to Tahiti, particularly, but some of the smaller islands like Rarotonga and the Cook Islands. That didn't happen, but I would really like to go. So that's definitely on my list. I would very much like to go to Ghana and I will do that within the next year or two I'm sure. I'm going to cross one of them off this year. I have never seen the northern lights, although I have tried 3 or 4 times, but this year I'm going to do it. I'm going to Norway on a cruise through the fjords and you can go to sleep and they leave someone out on the deck to watch for the northern lights. When they see them, they wake everyone up. And you get to be in Norway. And you get to be in Norway. Yeah. I want to go to Malta. People have said it's absolutely fascinating. I have not been there. I was in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, but I would like to go back to the UAE and see some of the other countries because I hear tell that they're quite fascinating. And each one's very different from the other. And I'd like to go frankly, back to Dubai. I was there about seven years ago, maybe, and it's changing so fast. I'm sure it's going to look like a different city when I go back. And the same thing with Abu Dhabi. I was there 2 days after the Louvre Abu Dhabi opened, which is one of the most gorgeous museums I've ever been in, the architecture is phenomenal and the exhibits are just amazing. They've set it up in a very unusual way. Instead of showing you like French art, Asian art, what they've done is arranged everything chronologically. So what was happening in the 1500s all around the globe?

Elizabeth:

Oh, how interesting.

Karen:

Which is a really interesting concept. And I'd never seen anything like it. And it was wonderful. So I'd like to go back there because there's like 3 or 4 museums that are opening there. So I would like to go back there as well as Oman and some of the other countries. And then where I would love to go back to, I used to go to Crete, Greece every other summer for many years with a group of friends. We rented a house and it was really magical. And I have not been back to Crete probably in 20 years, and that's somewhere I would really like to go back to just to see. I'm a little afraid of what it might be like. Because I'm afraid it might have gotten built up. Another place that I definitely want to go back to is South Korea. I was there and loved it, but I didn't get to spend enough time. I really only saw Seoul and one other town, but I'd like to go back and really explore South Korea. And then places that I don't ever want to go back to. I don't want to go back to Bali. I've been in Bali three times. The first time I was there it was totally unspoiled. It was amazing. The second time I was there, it was a little more built up. The third time I was there, I thought that I was in Australia. There were so many Aussies there. And it had lost a lot of character. And that's even when you went away from the resort areas. And that was more than a little disturbing. So I don't want to go back. I want to have this pristine image of it in my mind. Same thing with Venice. I was in Venice when it was not-- I mean, they're now talking about charging people to go in if you go in for the day. And I understand why from what I've read about it. But I was there 40 years ago when that was not what it was like. And you could just wander around. It was magical. And so I don't want to go back there. Because it's going to ruin my image.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, I can understand that.

Karen:

So, you know, there's both ends of the spectrum. And lots of places-- like London I go back to all the time because I have a lot of friends there. And if I'm going somewhere else in Europe, I always stop off in London just to go see my friends. But somebody said to me tomorrow, let's go to I don't know, Uganda, I'd say, okay, let's go.

Elizabeth:

You're a yes woman when it comes to travel.

Karen:

Oh, yeah. I'm the one that all my friends, if they want to go somewhere, and they want somebody to go with them, So, how would you feel about? And my usual question is, when?

Elizabeth:

Can I fit it into my schedule?

Karen:

Exactly. Exactly.

Elizabeth:

So do you have any tips for jet lag?

Karen:

First thing you do when you get on the plane is change your watch to the time of what it's going to be when you arrive. Then, behave as though that's the actual time it is. So, if it's supposed to be breakfast time, eat breakfast, and then stay up. If it's evening, even if you're not tired, try and take a nap. On the

Elizabeth:

plane. In the little cramped seat in the

Karen:

plane. You bet. Do whatever you can so that you are on that time zone when you arrive. A lot of people swear by melatonin, never done anything for me. If I'm going to Europe, it's almost always a night flight. I get there in the morning, drop my bags off at the hotel. And typically they won't let you check in until like two o'clock. So I wander around a little bit in a fog. Two o'clock I go back to the hotel, sleep for two or three hours. And then get up and have it be evening, have dinner, do something, and then go back to sleep. And that usually works. Within a day, I'm okay. Coming back the other direction, I have a worse time. Going east is easy, going west is more difficult, because you have a very long day. And, I end up waking up in the middle of the night every time. Every time.

Elizabeth:

So even a seasoned, very extra seasoned traveler has a hard time with jet lag. I guess that's a little reassuring.

Karen:

Yes.

Elizabeth:

I mean, I'm sorry to hear it, but it happens to all of us. It happens to everyone. It's physiological and you do whatever you can to just make it as normal as possible.

Karen:

That's all you can do.

Elizabeth:

The long plane rides and the jet lag is a fair price to pay for getting to experience the different cultures.

Karen:

And if you're going really around the globe. Now this is going to tell you how much of an insane traveler I am, but these were mostly business trips. I've been to Australia eight times. Three for fun and five were business trips and talk about screwing up your internal clock. That's the one that is lethal. For two or three days, I'm walking around in both directions, going, where am I? What time is it? And made the huge mistake on one trip when I got home, I thought, Oh, I'll go for groceries. I'm okay. And I backed out right into another car.

Elizabeth:

Oh, understandable.

Karen:

Yeah. And that was when I said, never drive again, right when you get back and you're jet lagged, never ever.

Elizabeth:

Do not operate heavy machinery.

Karen:

Exactly.

Elizabeth:

So now you're a travel writer. Was that a difficult pivot? Clearly the subject matter comes easily, but is it hard to, get published and was it hard to write the books?

Karen:

The first book took a long time. Because I was writing it while I was still working and it was in bits and pieces and fits and starts. The second book I wrote so fast, I couldn't believe. And I really couldn't believe how fast I wrote it just was easy. And I'm writing the third one now. And that one's also going to be pretty easy. But getting published, finding a publisher is not easy. It's a chore. It takes a long time and it's difficult. And then the really hard part is marketing it. And my career was in marketing and I thought, oh, that won't be a problem. Lo and behold, I discovered that it is a huge amount of work, a massive amount of work, and that came as kind of a shock, and a lot of it I like, but some of it is just tedious work. The first book is"Travel Mania: Stories of Wanderlust," and the thing about these books, is you don't have to read them in order. I've had people say to me, oh, well, I looked up all the places that I've been to to see what your experiences were like compared to what my experiences were like. And I've had other people say, yeah, I read all the places that I've always wanted to go to and have never been to. Then I skip around and then I go back and I read the ones I haven't read. Because they're interesting, but I focused on the ones I was really interested in. The second book, can be read the same way, is called, it's got a very long title,"Wanderlust, Extraordinary People, Quirky Places, and Curious Cuisine." And that one, literally came out of people saying to me, you have such great stories about people you've met, and you don't emphasize that in the book. Quirky places, yes, but I know you've been to even quirkier places than are in the first book, which is certainly true. And we know you love food, write about food.

Elizabeth:

So it sounds like this maybe came from your journals, some of these stories?

Karen:

Yeah, a lot of that. Yeah. A lot of them. And it was funny because I thought, well, I'll just write the one book and then everybody kept saying, no, no, no, no, no, you got to write more stories. And I made a list of, okay, so what could I tell a story about and realized I have enough for three or four books and every time I travel I get more. And then what happened after the first book was published, I actually had an online publication contact me and say would I write a story for them, which I did. And I was contacted by another place, and they've published a number of my stories. And so now I've got people coming to me asking me to write. Fantastic. Yeah, it's taken a while. And if you had told me 5 or 10 years ago that this would happen, I would not have believed you. But I put in the work, I really put in the work. And, the books are fun and people have read them and go, oh, my God, she's got great stories and she can write, which is a good combination. And, so it's beginning to really pay off.

Elizabeth:

Congratulations.

Karen:

Thank you.

Elizabeth:

Thank you so much. This has been really fun for me. I've sort of been an armchair traveler here through you and can't wait to start traveling again.

Karen:

It's been great fun talking with you.

Karen is certainly an inspiration, having figured out a way to combine her passion and her work. Here are some of my takeaways from our conversation. Number one: Find a job that lets you do what you love. Two. Look for opportunities to open your world and get to know new people. Take public transportation. Sit at a communal table. Let yourself get lost every now and then. Three. When things seemingly go wrong, they often turn out to be the most fun or memorable experiences on a trip or in life. Four. Be curious. Instead of assuming that there isn't anything in a particular town, assume that there's something waiting to be discovered and that you just have to figure out how to do it. Five."Dream jobs", like travel writer, don't just fall into your lap. You still have to be qualified, and work hard to get them. And finally, number Six. You don't have to do everything, on a trip or in your everyday life. Strive for an authentic experience. Do what makes you happy. My thanks to Karen Gershowitz for talking travel with me. Links to Karen's books and other travel articles she's written are in the show notes for this episode. If you'd like to listen to other interviews with writers, check out episode 18 with cookbook author and food blogger Rebecca Firth, also known as Displaced Housewife. And episode 24 with children's book author Jess Carpenter. I'd be so grateful if you'd subscribe to the YouTube version of our podcast, which you can find at WhatIt'sLikeTo2023, or to the podcast itself, or both. And if you'd tell a few friends about us too. I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr. Thanks for being curious about what it's like.